It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. Im really enjoying this. And this is what I did in the opening statement. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? Thanks for the super chat. He became sinner. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. I mean, I have to really think about that. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. on It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Since the Catholic church is certain that the brothers of Jesus are anything other than biological siblings, meaning uterine siblings, why are they not able to be just a certain specifically who they are? Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. Okay. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. H. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). He might bring it up in his rebuttal. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. Okay. Adelphos is not my issue. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. Just keep it shorter than his response. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Sure. Thats just how debates work. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. Philosophy program at Talbot. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Thank you and God bless everyone. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. Well, a lot to cover here. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. Lets debate the Apocrypha! So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. This is make or break time. Okay. Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Please join our community. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. Okay, I get that. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. H. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Yep. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Okay. And see, heres the thing. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. Jesus does not rebuke her. Wouldnt they have noticed that their child up to the age of 12 or 13, however, she was, that she had not committed a single sin? Type it in. Yeah, sure. But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. Yes. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. What about after the apostolic age? All right. He mentioned about the Septuagint. He was preceded in death by both his parents. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. Yeah. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. Yeah. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. Sure. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. Thats just being read into the text. Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? No, I dont think you are following my point. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. He was human. Trent models that approach each. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? Theres no contradiction there at all. Anything else you might disagree with? As I said before, thats not what were debating today. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. How do we know this from the New Testament? So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Okay. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. So thats all up there as well. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Okay. And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. This is really great. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. Yeah, no, fair enough. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. Some of the ways Trent and I would agree that a dogma contradicts scripture is explicitly, implicitly, or partially. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. Agreed. Christiaan Kappes. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. Okay. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. Good, because you know what? Okay. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. All right. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. So Im going to cover four of them. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. 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