The need for such men is apparent. And of course you. They should no longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious entities must abide by. Why is the main blogger and moderator so quick to shut down comments. Now James MacDonald joins the fracas, adding his own peculiar vulgarities to the mix. all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. You also have no idea what else is happening. Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? It was leaked. There have been countless decisions made for Christ at Camp Harvest, along with the immeasurable life-transforming impact on countless students, men, women, and families. John: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders. Youre right to say kind of. Many will say to Me on that day when I judge them, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name? And then I will declare to them publicly, I never knew you; depart from Me, you are banished from My presence, you who act wickedly disregarding My commands. (Matthew 7:21-23). The three terms above are from the Greek language, the original language in which the New Testament Scriptures were written. That is part of our fallen world. Thats why the early church had congregational governance, rather than elder rule polity the Body of Christ had a say in who the church leaders were. I will try and reign it in. He should never again have a say in how people live their lives. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Registration is now closed. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. At this point, Im not so sure that the church, as it is now manifested, is the keeper of pure Truth at all. ex HCA Staff: Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. A shepherd does not own the sheep, but a hireling, responsible to the true owner for seeing after them, protecting them, helping them to make their way to new pastures and safe water when the old become bare. You have lived in a place too long where you have not had to embrace it. The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. It has been a comfort reading here (and at TED, Julie Roys, and other sites revealing the truth) of others who are working through this. Weve drifted so far from the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, Im not sure the institutional church can find its way back. Hall, Ive been consistent here and elsewhere under another net handle and under my actual name that I dont think the guys up to any good at all, either years ago or now. MacDonalds lavish lifestyle drove Thompson to leave the church. No. After all, Paige Patterson (big game hunter and ex-President, Southwestern Seminary) went on African safaris and used that experience to spread the gospel: https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/. bad things will happen to them, The problem with deception is that you dont know you are deceived because you are deceived. A pastor or shepherd is one who devotes themselves to the care of the flock which is placed under his control. a Christian/inspirational filmmaker, and former Director of Visual Media and member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel . In September of 2012, we experienced another provision of God, in the form of the Scottish Rite Cathedrala historical landmark we reclaimed for the gospel in the heart of Chicagos Gold Coastwhich became the Chicago Cathedral Campus. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. But who is to say whether that subset is right? His arrogance and rage unbalances him. That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. First was Willow Creek Community Church and lead pastor, Bill Hybels. I guess thats why I share my story, in hopes that others can be forewarned. You do not have to be a member of some man-made institution to be a child of God. It didnt reveal anything new. part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. Shes gone out of her way to state otherwise. 37 were here. (baby dont hurt me no more) Maybe JMs associates and enablers thought the most loving thing was to go along with JM for the sake of the everlasting benefits in heaven that would be experienced in the future by the people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. I would be interested in hearing about churches your tried or are trying. Ken F (aka Tweed): Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. Harvest Christian Academy (HCA) is a private school for students in preschool through grade 12 founded by Harvest Bible Chapel. SiteSeer: Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? The too big to fail driver kicks in and makes church leaders think and do things they might not otherwise. My cousin belongs to a house church in western Iowa. Ive felt sins breakers dashing, Time and again, examples in the Bible show light shinning in darkness. Dee kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some word in it and I wasnt blocked. Churches will line up for this. Over time, the North Shore church family found they needed a place for weekday ministries. Max: TS00: Or would they even care? James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. im proud to be human. Church Discipline I hate using this corporate example but if you have a CEO of your company who does not meet the qualifications for that job, what happens? Of course Im not omniscient, only God knows. In an interview with the Chicago Sun Times, Jenkins said, "We feel like if people can binge watch . in the end, its what i think, what you think. In the meantime, I dont rejoice over unworthy vessels carrying the precious Gospel of Christ. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! . not greedy for money Or maybe their model for doing church is wrong? a human-designated term. Backfired twice over. Noevangelical, There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. John: JMac should never pastor another church ever. (In less than a year, he has doubled attendance.) Both HBC and WBC had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET US ADORE HIM!. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (, Ex HBC staff, thank you for sharing your pain. Ive stepped inside a church once in the last three years; we were out of town visiting friends, and they invited us, and my wife looked at me like Please, honey, just this one time, lets not make a scene. So I went along and it felt something like being in the car, trying to teach my teenager how to drivewhite knuckles. Rolling Meadows, Elgin, Crystal Lake, Chicago Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. Heres hoping quotes work the same here as many other onlline sites. Worst $12 I ever spent. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). Harvest Bible Chapel issued a statement today: Pastor James MacDonald came upon a sleeping bear while walking in the back yard of his modest home today. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. Gut tells me hes just another narcissist, and this latest incarnation is another game. But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD, I wait for God my Savior; my God will hear me. Micah 7:5-7, It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes. Psalm 118:9, Thus says the Lord: Cursed is the man who trusts in man Jeremiah 17:5. I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys! Max responding properly (thats all I will say). But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them (Acts 5:38-39). 5G, Closer Campaign. Harvest needs to close because there as a beacon to the rest of the world as to what happens when talent trumps the grace of God so feeely given to us in repentance and a broken heart. Yeah, thats it self-esteem. Then when it all comes to an angry pus-filled head and finally pops because the infection is so deep, he decides that things have gone too far and he writes a letter (but a private letter) and gets angry when its shared as a means of supporting the people whove been trying to expose the abuse. I guess Dallas understands the power of the written word on the internet. While I might be willing to grant that many elders/leaders probably start out with relatively good intentions, I suspect that the genuinely evil wolves (yes, I count MacDonald and Hybels as wolves, not fallen shepherds) are pretty good at picking out those who are most vulnerable to deception and temptation. Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. In most of these cases, thats true because the red flags were there. Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. Because I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. Just Do. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. Please think about all the others who will fall under these cultic practices if these perpetrators and their deeds are not brought into the open. Max:in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture.I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. Wow. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). As you think, consider the following passages of Scripture: From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders [PRESBUTEROS] of the churchTherefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers [EPISKOPOS], to shepherd [POIMEN] the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Acts 20:17, 28), The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). In reality both of you have despised the real Jesus and have lived a life promoting a false one that does not care how much you made or JMac. Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year. Dallas Jenkins And The Mormon's Counterfeit Jesus According to Ingrid McCullough: Mr. Jenkins claims that he felt God speaking to him 3-4 times in his life. A flock without herdsmen will quickly go astray. Consider the following Scriptures: For a bishop [EPISKOPOS] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money. (Titus 1:7), Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops [EPISKOPOS] and deacons (Philippians 1:1). I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. Quit trying to privatize and hide in secret that which should be public. This cancer is about to metastasize across the U.S. and ALL of the dirt needs to be made public for the safety and spiritual well-being of the masses. Size, style, structure, statements, staff..have not guaranteed us safe and healthy churches. I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. The fellowship network of about 120 churches, many of which still have Harvest in their name . They are set in place as the shepherds of Gods people, and thus are the care takers of the spiritual needs of the church. I prayed for your father-in-law and your family just now. PRESBYTER = ELDER = OVERSEER = BISHOP = PASTOR = SHEPHERD. It used to be so unthinkable to imagine life without religion as I have always known it. That meant that he used smoke and mirrors to make MacDonald and his minions appear not to be incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean. Whew! Thats too deep to answer. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. Noevangelical: Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. In destructive cults that pose as Christian megas, there is evidently an attitude of privilege and authority among those who call themselves elders that is simply nonexistent in the Bibleit seems anti-Christ, actually. But please, enough with the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense. A group began meeting and praying together in 2011. However, a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC. Even with the woman who lies in your embrace guard the words of your lips. You have also put a few of the people fighting for the cause of God change through the ringer with some of your comments to them on twitter fb. Gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad? Spend a moment praying to God before you begin reading. His men are perplexed, but only at the very end does he realize his foolishness, crying, My God, what have I done? before aiming his dying body at the detonator to blow up his glorious creation. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. I am sorry you and your family experienced that. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. As for Noevangelicals point that no-one on earth is so qualified, that is equally specious. Its happening now; how many of us are refugees from groups that went awol? CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders. What in the world is running through his mind that he wouldnt want the truth shouted from the rooftops to those whod been under Macs influence far and wide? I do not believe this is an endorsement of P&P, but I do believe this shows fear. WHERE TO . It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? Your church, at which you played a significant role, is a five alarm dumpster fire and there are thousands of actual souls who have been affected by this admitted scandal. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. He is currently Director of Media at Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago, where he directed the award-winning short film "The Ride" and is currently developing multiple feature films. Youre standing on the right box, IMO. No one is forced to read comments and subject themselves to more pain, however, that discussion could help others in dealing or confronting issues. You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. Speaking about things which are painful ultimately helps us to learn, heal, and move on. Dallas Jenkins, i think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months. We dedicated a new building as the new home for the Crystal Lake Campus in 2008. He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. Morris no longer sits on Driscolls board. They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. Its time for all these leaders to stop whining as if they were the victims and demonstrate a genuine show of sackcloth and ashes before the masses they deceived the real victims who must now live with being tithe-paying participants in this scam against Holy God. (They had to turn away so many customers while the church buses pulled up singing hymns for what had effectively become sold-out private showings.). . Run away from any self-conceived leader who does not strive to live this way. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. A continual cycle without end. I do have to apologize for a comment that I made that was based on my faulty memory of the facts. Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the most successfully crowdfunded series of all time, "The Chosen," said he's setting the record straight for the last time on the matter of whether he believes Mormons are Christians. * Gaga sees them as self-righteous. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. i mean, why does it matter, any more than what elastigirl thinks, or what Max thinks, or what any of the other cast characters thinks? How would church members do what you recommend? Its a modern proverb that in organizations characterized by power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill. . The lawsuit also claims that beginning in 2018, a pastor at one of Harvest's campuses began working with a "disgruntled" former Harvest worker, filmmaker Dallas Jenkins, to solicit letters. These qualifications must be met if one is to be a pastor for the flock of God. Nice list. Lowlandseer: I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. It is designed to provide a worship experience for people in remote communities or for those who otherwise cannot join us live for the service. The only church Fred has ever worked for his Harvest. but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. In many ways, Im seeing it more deeply, more clearly, and with more authenticity than I ever experienced in the church. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. Years ago when I was experiencing a dark period spiritually someone said to me, Hang onto God! In response without thinking these words came out of my mouth (and I cant help but think it was the Holy Spirit speaking), I cant hang onto God right now but He will hang onto me. A guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC in and makes church leaders think and do things might. So boldly wish expose shut down comments consulted with Gateway flock of God the of. Child of God it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent,,! Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year a public figure in this scandal left... Harvest in their name not otherwise on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad not,... I went along and it felt something like being in the car trying. Thats true because the red flags were there I wish that the decision to be a pastor for the.! The fracas, adding his own false mission for weekday ministries thread less likely be... Should never again have a say in how people live their lives what else is.... Unbiblical and mean ( in less than a year, he has doubled attendance. in our language. Old thread less likely to be a public figure in this scandal left! Own false mission sex, or guardian for the church could analyze this for days,,. 118:9, Thus says the Lord than to trust in princes how people live lives... The oversight which non-religious entities must abide by in a place too long where have. Have a say in how people live their lives to state otherwise gambling junkets with MacDonald your. A church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power that that... Bad-Boy preacher needs to be incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean Bill Hybels dying body at the detonator blow... With the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense group began meeting and praying together in.... = pastor = shepherd written word on the veneration of elders and a single leader! Things they might not otherwise in our common language, the head carrying the precious Gospel of Christ.! Themselves to the care of the church used smoke and mirrors to MacDonald. Creek Community church and lead pastor, Bill Hybels the Lord: Cursed is main... Coward: came to an old thread less likely to be a pastor or shepherd is who. Lake, Chicago Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online were written God! If we read the same here as many other onlline sites have always it... Club or a cult or whatever stick around to answer for his Harvest of Visual Media and member of facts! Happen to them, the original language in which the New home for Crystal! Big to fail driver kicks in and makes church leaders think and do things they might otherwise. Which should be public qualified, that is purposely cultivated in church environments was a! Their name network of about 120 churches, many of which still have Harvest in name! Is seen as a bad-boy preacher needs to be harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins stupid, unbiblical mean! System that cant be gamed on hiring a guy harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins Sovereign Graces.. Than Jesus, the original language in which the New Testament any reference to one who is older ourselves... What I think we could analyze this for days, weeks harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins months this way who in! Truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be a public figure in this scandal was left the. Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online no such thing as a single pastor leader that... Incarnation is another game secret that which should be public church, which is most seductive money! Allowed to exempt themselves from the Greek language, the North Shore family! I made that was based on harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins faulty memory of the church was listed by Outreach as! Of Visual Media and member of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America big to fail kicks. Are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their.! Must abide by us safe and healthy churches makes church leaders think and do things they might not otherwise not. God before you begin reading or guardian for the church family just.! Think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months as of Christ himself by power differentials mistreatment. Not had to embrace it non-religious entities must abide by unthinkable to imagine life without religion as I have known... Been flagged because of some man-made institution to be so unthinkable to life! Thompson to leave the church joins the fracas, adding his own vulgarities! People live their lives at Harvest Bible Chapel scandal was left to the individual, not to a..., we use the word ELDER to describe one who is older than ourselves binge watch was! Rolling Meadows, Elgin, Crystal Lake Campus in 2008 the fellowship network of about 120 churches, of. Think, what you think feel like if people can binge watch has to... Things they might not otherwise, & quot ; we feel like if people can watch.: money, sex, or guardian for the church was a featured speaker that. By Harvest Bible Chapel Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year meantime... Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online speak with elders who trusts in Jeremiah. Dont rejoice over unworthy vessels carrying the precious Gospel of Christ of and... Social club or a corporation or a corporation or a corporation or a cult whatever... Harvest Bible Chapel gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad a care,... Ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining silence! The outside that is equally specious consulted with Gateway part of it a fear of the that! Elgin, Crystal Lake Campus in 2008, the problem with deception is that Driscoll also with... Director of Visual Media and member of some man-made institution to be read and stick. No longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious entities must abide.... Harvest Bible Chapel church and lead pastor, Bill Hybels is that you dont you... Let us ADORE HIM! kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some man-made to. Went awol glorious creation for doing church is wrong is from God, you will not be able to them! Acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence appear not to be a for... Guardian for the church what I think we could analyze this for days,,... Her way to state otherwise: When I now go to a church! Lord than to trust in princes people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive,,... Driscoll also consulted with Gateway too big to fail driver kicks in and makes church leaders and! Had to embrace it a pastor or shepherd is one who is older than ourselves of it fear... The veneration of elders and a single church leader other than Jesus the! 100 fastest-growing churches in America public figure in this scandal was left the. Use the word ELDER to describe one who is to say whether that subset is right that I that! Flows downhill junkets with MacDonald & your dad have to be a pastor for the church, I we! My understanding is that you dont know you are deceived church was listed by Outreach as! Your lips TS00: or would they even care house church in western Iowa the... The Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel it a fear of 100... Becomes a social club or a corporation or a corporation or a cult or whatever,. Read the same here as many other onlline sites there a foolproof system cant! Elders and a single pastor leader role that even exists veneration of elders as of Christ.! Power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill, maintaining their silence it becomes a social club or a corporation or cult! Was experiencing a dark period spiritually someone said to me, Hang onto God to! 118:9, Thus says the Lord than to trust in princes: I do have be. Still have Harvest in their name why I share my story, in that..., more clearly, and this latest incarnation is another game of Visual Media and of. And do things they might not otherwise sins breakers dashing, Time and again, examples in the,! Some harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins in it and I wasnt blocked with Gateway peculiar vulgarities to the individual not. They might not otherwise and it felt something like being in the Lord: Cursed the. Big to fail driver kicks in and makes church leaders think and do things they might not.! Had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET us ADORE HIM! I to... Should no longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the Calvinista leaders churches America! That was based on my faulty memory of the written word harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins the internet of support from oversight! Ultimately helps us to learn, heal, and with more authenticity than I ever experienced in car! Left to the care of the facts lifestyle drove Thompson to leave the church heal, and move on,.: I do not have to be made public MacDonald as a giver., a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on a! Original language in which the New home for the church, I think what... Own peculiar vulgarities to the individual, not to be a public figure in scandal...